Jib Sheet Routing and thingypit Engine Hatch queries

[sharsp]

Hi Everyone,
Am making progress with my ship Omega as I continue to resurrect her from dilapidation and the neglect of her previous owner.
I have just finished moving my main jib winches to the top of the cabin so I can fit new Harken self tailing radials in the interest of single handed sailing but I am scratching my head regarding the routing of the jib sheets to the new winches.

My problem lies in what I think is a poor location (design) of the main winches combined with the limitations imposed by Harken (and I assume most other winch manufacturers) on the correct fitment of their winches.
Harken requires a sheet entry angle of 8deg +- 2deg (from below the winch) to avoid sheets overrunning and becoming tangled; which makes a lot of sense when you look at how the sheet winds onto the drum and is why I assume other winch manufacturers would also like to see some sort of low sheet entry angle. I did have sheets overrun each other with the original setup with an entry angle of less than 8 degrees.
These requirements clash head on with where the Holland designer/builder has positioned the original winches. They are located on the cokpit seating and in such a way that the jib sheets cannot run directly from the jib sheet cars to the winch, the fiberglass coping blocks the line of sight of the sheet and so a block further sternward is needed to take the jib sheet over the lowest part (near the stern) of the coping and back to the winch. Every other boat I have seen has their winches mounted on or beyond the coping where line of sight exists between the genoa car and the winch. Why was the Holland made this way?
I am currently moored next to another dilapidated H25 and it has the same problem but because the jib sheet routing (and associated tackle) on both boats is different (home made?!) I am unsure what the factory setup was. (What is on your boat?) It feels as though the boat was built and then someone said 'whoops, forgot to make a home for the jib winches so lets just put them in the middle of the thingypit seating!

If I keep the winches in their current position I require a winch riser of approx 90-100mm under my new winches to allow a sheet entry angle as required by Harken! This is going to look absurd as the winches sit proud (200mm top to bottom) out of the thingypit seating!

As I am trying to avoid having this winch & base towering out of the seating area, the only solution I can think of is to move the winches closer to the coping with a riser attached to the top of the coping and a leg bolted to the thingypit seat so that there is line of sight for the jib sheet and so stern routing block is not required.
Any of your thoughts appreciated?
What system is employed on your ships?

I am also needing to waterproof the engine access hatch in the thingypit floor. While being a fantastic way of accessing the rear of the engine, Without waterproofing my ship will one day sink! I would like to find a solution to keep the hatch working as intended so sealing without sealing permanently. There was remnants of the original(?) rubber mating surfaces but was in such poor condition that I cant even offer a sample to aid in finding a replacement.
Again kind folk, what is working on your boats?
Thanks in advance.

[paulmac]

Hi Sharsp. It sounds like my main winches are situated in exactly the same location as yours - and yes - this doesn't allow line of sight for the jib sheets. So my jib sheets have to go back to the (almost) stern mounted pulley/roller and then forward to the main winches. Like you, I suspect this is a design fault. You can see on my boat, where previous owners have experimented with avoiding using the stern pulley/roller, and they've tried to use the line of sight approach. This has slightly damaged (worn down) the fibreglass combing in places, which I need to repair. Where you said: '...the only solution I can think of is to move the winches closer to the combing with a riser attached to the top of the combing and a leg bolted to the cokpit seat, so that there is line of sight for the jib sheet and so stern routing block is not required.' - I agree with you. On my boat, for the time being, I've decided to keep having my jib sheets going back to the (almost) stern mounted pulley/roller and then forward to the main winches. It works, but its not ideal.

Regarding waterproofing the cokpit floor engine bay hatch, I might be able to help you there. The setup on my boat works well - and no water enters the engine bay through this hatch (the stern gland is another matter!). This is what one of the previous owners has done... Picture this: standing in the cokpit, looking forward and down at the hatch, if you draw a line from beam to beam halfway down the length of the hatch, then either side of the hatch they've inserted two stainless steel bolts pointing down. Now, picture being down below kneeling where the companionway stairs normally sit, looking towards the stern into the engine bay. Picture the two stainless steel bolts pointing down from the cokpit floor... the bolts protrude about 5-6cm down through the cokpit floor. All they've done is to get a bare timber plank (I think its pine), drilled 2 holes to match the position of the bolts, and then used large wing nuts to tighten the plank to the underside of the floor - so it works like a clamp fom underneath, further tightening the hatch seal. Simple, but it works well. So if you want to open the cokpit floor engine bay hatch, you first need to reach into the engine bay, undo the wing nuts, remove the plank and that's it!

[paulmac]

Oops - hang on - I made a mistake in my description of where the cokpit floor bolts are mounted for the plank - they're actually mounted on the cokpit floor hatch - not either side of the hatch.

[Mystique R333]

Hey guys

You can insert photos now of details - a picture tells a thousand words....

Here is my setup which is same as every other H25 I've seen.

Colin

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[Mystique R333]

Just use Attachment (file must be under 1,024kb or is rejectes) so only one per posting. Here is another view before grey Decktred painting.

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[sharsp]

Paul Mac,
Yeah this winch setup is a real dilemma and could easily have been designed with a purpose built winch mount as part of the combing mould - like every other boat out there! But anyway we have to deal with what we've got I suppose.

Guys the dilemma I have is the fact that the line entry angle onto the winch cannot be achieved with the winch mounted flat on the seat as in Colin's photos above.

Colin your winches have no riser at all and would therefore allow a very flat sheet angle onto your winch. I got very excited because I thought I could just seat mount my new winches until I re-read the instructions specifying the need for a negative sheet-to-winch angle.

Originally my barlow's had a small (1inch) riser made from wood but even with this the sheet was very flat. The cowling just seems to be in the way even at its lowest point near the stern.

I would really love to know what the factory setup was ie where was the jib sheet routed and thru what tackle. My boat and your boat Col and I'm sure I could add Paul Macs ship here, all have different lead blocks for example, back to the winch. What was standard? Why did this not work as all the boats I have seen are different. Colin I assume that from your photo, the double ronstan cheek block routes back to your winch? Are both of the sheaves used or is just a way of having the top sheave tall enough to get over the cowling?

My wife and i have just had our first new born in the last couple of weeks so am pretty busy at home. Will get back to the boat soon and consider again the options and will let you all know what I come up with. Still deciding if the cowling mount will work ok as the winch will be very outboard and may be difficult to use when the boat is heeled whilst sailing. Will let y'all know.

Paul Mac thanks for sharing your solution for keeping hatch water tight. My hatch has perimeter bolts to hold it down but as mentioned the rubber that effects the seal is all but buggered. There is an inset rubber seal on the bottom of the hatch itself that seems to be in good nick but nothing left for it to seat against. What do you guys have in the way of a seal? I have been to clark rubber but haven't found anything that looks like it will mate together properly. I will probably go with more of a foam type rubber in a flat profile but thick enough that the hatch beds into it.

I will endeavour to take some photos when i'm at the boat next to back up my posts.

[sharsp]

WARNING!
Verify the entry angle of the sheet. This must be 8° with tolerance
of ±2°, to avoid sheet overrides and damaging the winch or
making the winch inoperable leading to loss of control of the
boat which can lead to severe injury or death.

This was copied and pasted direct from the Harken winch manual.
I know that most companies out there will all post disclaimers and warnings etc to void law suites etc but I tend to agree with the guts of this message.
I have also attached the associated picture from the the same page in the manual.

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[paulmac]

I will be spending most of today on my boat, so I'll take some photos of the cokpit winch setup and also of the thingypit floor hatch seal for you. I'll try and post these here tonight. Cheers.

[sharsp]

Apologies Colin.
After looking at your photos again I noticed you do have a riser under your winch.
It looks to be about the same or a little smaller than what was fitted under my barlow's originally.

[virage]

Hi,
Virage III has a winch riser approx 35mm. Sorry about the bad focused photo.

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[paulmac]

Sorry - I forgot to take some close-up winch photos the other day. My main winches are also mounted on cylindrical wooden risers about 35mm high. The photo I've attached is a few months old, but you can get an idea of the location of the winches, just not the close-up detail. Cheers.

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[gordo]

Hello Sharsp
I have moved my main winches towards the return block and lifted with 10mm marine ply base under the origonal timber base [lifting the hole unit 10mm] keep in mind that the origonal base has a grade to slope the winch back from the return block giving you required angle. I

[gordo]

Hello sharsp
This works well the sheets do not lock on the winches and gets the winches to the side of the thingypit making moving around a lot easier.
you will need to renforce the deck [sandwich the underside of the seat]
regards Gordo holland 25 sail no: 2726

[sharsp]

Thanks for your thoughts Gordo. I agree and will be raising my winches in a similar fashion when I fit them. Will also be spreading the load and strengthening the deck with a good size backing plate.

I have made the decision to go all in and repaint the entire boat! The rigging is off as are most of the decks fittings. I am waiting for a motor bike to sell before diving in and then the satisfying job of putting her back together again.

Does anyone want to buy a motorbike?!

[kermitjames]

My view is to get them onto the cabin top and clean up the thingypit seating area.

The attached photos show the sheet turning blocks (incidentally) and this has worked on my Holland for many years.

Yes there are a few "rope burns" on the edge of the cabin top but this is not a real problem.

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